privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Ho pensato che alcuni di noi potrebbero trovare interessante quest'articolo che ho trovato per caso. E' in inglese ed è un po' lungo, ma ne vale la pena. Ad ogni modo, nel caso posso tradurlo. Buona lettura. WHY THE HELL AM I STILL ALONE Thursday, September 22, 2005 Why The Hell Am I Still Alone: Getting Serious About Serious Gay Relationships by Max S. Gordon Sapience Magazine December 2005 “If he makes even one mistake,” Darren said, “I’m telling you right now, he’s out.” Over brunch, Darren had just finished catching me up on the relationship he’d recently ended. We were now envisioning the prospect of any of his future lovers. He’d been hurt severely by Gary, his boyfriend of eight months who he found out had been having sex with other men. It wasn’t the first time a lover of Darren’s had cheated, or attempted to cheat on him. “Even one mistake?” I asked. For the look he gave me, I might have been the offender. “I’m tired of being taken advantage of, Max,” he continued. “And of ignoring the signs. Gary was constantly flirting, always letting his phone go to voicemail when we were out together. I gave him too many chances, as usual, but he’s the last, and I mean it this time. If a man needs to use our relationship to figure out how to be honest, then he can go learn somewhere else.” I thought about my relationship with my partner, the mistakes I’d made even that morning, and the ones I would probably make by the end of the day. Sometimes, when I was in a particularly cynical mood, my long-term relationship of twelve years felt defined by the mistakes – with the occasional reprieve of companionship and sex thrown in. I considered men in relationships with each other, and fathers who said the same thing to their sons, whether it was literal or implied: “One mistake, buddy, and you’re out.” The sadness of the withdrawal of love from a partner who was imperfect, as all partners are, and yet the very real dilemma of trying to sustain a relationship with a man you were in love with and who couldn’t be trusted. I knew from my own experience as a lover and a friend that it is easier to have a rigid, angry jaw like Darren’s than to feel fully the grief of another relationship’s ending in frustration, of calling your friends about your new boyfriend, introducing him and then having to call them all back months later to announce you’ve just broken up with him. When the next “I’ve just met someone” call is made, you hear in their voices that the enthusiasm has waned, and without saying so, your friends have now developed a grace period for your lovers (groups of friends, like children, can have separation anxiety too). They congratulate you while refusing to meet or bond with the new boyfriend, waiting to see how long “this one will last.” “I’m lonely,” Darren said. His voice was quiet, almost a whisper. I played with the edge of my napkin, and we sat in the silence for a few moments. We’d reached the part of the conversation that couldn’t be laughed away with snapped fingers or double entendre, having exhausted current events, pop-culture gossip, and mutual friends’ successes and failures. It was the tail end of our weekly meetings, right before we parted, that was usually reserved for our own painful embarrassments and heartbreak, deliberately planned to ensure a quick getaway. “And I’m tired,” he sighed, finally. “Maybe I should just face the fact that I’m going to be alone for the rest of my life.” I reassured him that he was wrong, and the conversation brightened as we paid the check and changed the subject. Later, I thought of Darren when I had almost exactly the same conversation with a new acquaintance, Carlos, about the frustration of dating, the exhaustion and constant pressure of trying to be impressive with each new encounter ("It's like preparing the same performance over and over again without an opening night. I'm sick of dress rehearsals!"); of negotiating on which date you sleep with him, and if you choose too early, risking that he may lose interest; of meeting him online and finding out he’s lied about everything including his age, his profession and his 10-year-old picture, and his pleading as you close the door on him that he had to lie about his age or you never would have agreed to meet him in the first place. The get-togethers with friends where you are the only single man there. The online dating services, the workshops, singles parties and paid gatherings where Carlos told me he felt like cattle at an auction as he stood up, held a number in front of him, and announced his whole life to the group in less than five minutes and why he was loveable (but couldn’t get a date on his own). “Sometimes, I just want to give up on the whole fucking thing,” he said. It crossed my mind for an instant to introduce Darren to Carlos –why not? they were both looking. But no matter how lonely they were, or how much they felt victimized by the dating scene and a desire to find a real person like themselves, knowing them both, I knew a relationship between them would probably never work. Part of the reason why relationships, gay or straight, are so difficult, and why the failure to find one is so shame-inducing, is that there is a cultural assumption that we know how to have them. There aren't any courses in our primary education that teach us how to have healthy relationships, and proper sex education, on the occasions when it’s offered, doesn’t get the job done. Knowing how male spermatozoa swim upstream in search of female ova doesn’t tell you how long to wait for someone to call after a first date or whether you should wait at all. It doesn’t suggest how many times to forgive a partner who cheats, what to do if your partner hits you or verbally abuses you, or when to move in together, and if possible, get married, and when, if necessary, to pack your bags and leave. You never hear a child say, “This semester I’m taking math, art history, and romantic relationships.” I’ve never been asked once since high school about the battle of 1812, but a course on co-dependency and love addiction might have come in handy when I entered my first relationship. Those of us fortunate enough to come from homes where our parents communicated, and who modeled for us how two partners can have a disagreement without being abusive to one another, might have some basic relationship tools. But for far too many of us, in our parents’ marriages we saw a range from bitter indifference to physical and emotional violence. We have a cultural data bank filled with images from films, television, magazines and our families of a woman sitting by the phone waiting for a man to call, of a man breaking down a door in a jealous rage or stalking his girlfriend as she drives home from work, of two women fighting each other over a man, or two men “stepping outside” over a woman, of articles about “how to keep him satisfied” and couples who “can’t stand each other” one minute and then are so enmeshed they call each other every half hour and suddenly “can't stand to be apart.” We've all had the close friend, who is completely present and loving when he is single, but the minute he's is in a new relationship, he disappears - neglects friends and family, never returns phone calls and is missing in action - until the relationship ends and he needs a shoulder to cry on. He is apologetic, and begs for forgiveness, and the friendship is wonderful again – until his next lover comes along. Who can blame him? Most relationships are wonderful at first; like that new shirt or CD we'll die if we can't have. Months later, the shirt’s at the back of the closet, the songs on the CD are played out, and there is something new to be desired. Part of the problem of any relationship is that eventually the honeymoon period comes to an end. Until then, our relationship is a shiny new toy. Things are perfect at this stage; mistakes are avoided or ignored, and love can thrive because forgiveness isn’t yet required. When a relationship is new we wear our best outfits, we make sure to arrive on time, we avoid the alienating, controversial topics during dinner, and we make sure not ever to fart, or belch aloud. We excuse ourselves in the restaurant to check for spinach between our teeth. Fast forward a couple of years and, amazingly, we're now comfortable enough with this person to take a shit with the door open, wear their clothes without asking, and eat the last piece of pie without finding out first if they were saving it. During the honeymoon phase, however, we are on our best behavior and we definitely aren't in touch with any of the psychological pain that usually comes up for us in intimate relationships. Our personal horror stories are locked safely in the crypt where we feel they belong. Thank God, by the way, for this honeymoon period, or there might not be any relationships in the world at all! It's between the sixth month and the end of the first year when the relationship enters the second stage: things get “real”, he keeps leaving his socks on the floor, and the crypt begins to open. Our childhood pain rears its head. All the abandonment issues, all the early abuse and incest issues come up in order to be confronted and healed. If we anticipate this, and we've done some work beforehand, the relationship may have a chance. Some of us can work through these problems with the tools we have. For the rest of us, as I have seen in my own life, we are bewildered by a relationship that is suddenly, inexplicably different, in which we are sharing a bed with someone who has “changed”. We are shocked to discover our partner feels the same way about us. Our romantic relationships often bring up a series of experiences that trigger “flashbacks” to our original abuse and trauma, the first time we trusted and loved unconditionally and what we got in return. Part of our healing work is knowing when we are in flashback mode, when the overwhelming feeling we are experiencing during an argument with our partner is not completely of the moment we are in, but based on our own unresolved or unexplored history. That doesn’t let our partner off the hook if he or she is behaving like an asshole, it just means we take responsibility for the dysfunction that we bring to the relationship. I should probably take a moment here to acknowledge anyone who expected to read an article on relationships encouraging the reader to pick four-leaf clovers or write love poems to the relationship fairy during a full moon. I apologize if you feel misled – relationships are much harder, and harder won, than magic potions and wishing on stars. I definitely advocate prayer during the relationship, lots of it, in fact. And magic and self-help slogans (believe me, I've read and tried them all) may get you a first date. But since most serious dating will eventually turn into a serious relationship, we need more than a magic wand to integrate a person into the sacred parts of our lives, and more than wishful thinking to sustain the intimacy required for them to want to stay there. The truth is that more relationships would have a fighting chance if they weren't submerged by the weight of our romantic fantasies. A healthy relationship simply can't withstand the pressure that comes from our expectation that someone is going to save our lives or make us feel valued, safe or vital, especially if we've never felt these things from the people who cared for us as children, and if we never learned how to give them to ourselves. We are responsible for meeting our own emotional needs. Everyone loves to join a party that is thriving, and guests will often bring a bottle of wine, or chocolates, but if you invite someone to dinner and you're starving when she gets there because you expected her to bring the main course, then you aren't looking for a relationship, you’re holding people hostage. I am thankful that around the time I began my current partnership, still reeling from the personal failures in my last, I read books and listened to tapes which helped me see my relationships as spiritual “assignments.” I began to understand that not only would my insanity come up in the relationship, it was expected as part of my growth. I could move past the shame of being “crazy” in the relationship and learn how to work through my issues with my partner and to ask for help. Depending on the degree of damage we’ve sustained, we may require anything from a weekend refresher-course on intimacy, to couples-counseling, to a padded cell and a shot of thorazine. The support is out there if we are open to it. The real breakthrough is often not the help itself, but getting past the shame of needing it. If we are willing to understand that we aren’t wrong or bad for being terrified of relationships, and that it’s okay for intimacy to be scary sometimes, we can be patient with ourselves when our insanity comes up, and know that it is a sign that the relationship could be working, not failing - as long as we are taking responsibility for our own behavior and healing process. We can choose to love ourselves for having the courage to attempt intimate relationships at all, and can honor and respect ourselves when a relationship matures or when we intuitively know that one has to come to an end. In the conversations about relationships that I’ve overheard amongst my gay friends, it’s sometimes like a war, full of mutual envy and contempt. There is the single man who feels outraged at the “married” man who is dissatisfied with his long-term relationship. He listens to him complain for only so long before he finally says, “Hey, at least you’ve got someone.” The conversation may end there as the man in the relationship holds his tongue out of guilt, fearing he may be ungrateful, and before anyone stops to ask what kind of someone he’s got; his lover could be cruel and duplicitous, but the point seems to be just to “get a man.” Deep down he knows that the conversation has ignored one basic fact: that being in an intimate relationship with someone brings up unexpected challenges and anxieties that you never have to deal with when you are alone, and that a suffocating, addictive relationship with another human being, filled with recriminations, jealousy and rage can be pure hell for everyone involved, including family and friends. At some point, this man has also had to face the fact that it is possible to feel lonely within a relationship - a devastating realization, as he can no longer even maintain the romantic fantasy that finding a partner one day will make him feel complete. So it’s not just “any” relationship that should be envied. The perpetual fantasy of people who are “so happy”, simply because they are in a relationship, is just as sinister as those who do have a mate and who project onto single people the “freedom” that comes from the imagined one-night stands every night of the week and the luxury of not having to share the bathroom - who forget and romanticize what it means to want a relationship and to be single and alone. Part of getting serious about gay relationships begins with having compassion for ourselves whether we are in a romantic relationship or not, and understanding the barriers that sometimes get in the way of intimacy once a new relationship begins. Too often, just when we start to get close to one another, our pornography intrudes. The problem with the pornographic gaze (and I’m not talking about erotic videos of people running around naked, I'm talking about most of the images that pervade our culture, from downloaded internet porn to GQ and Vogue), is that some of us are looking for people in the world who don’t even exist. If you’re used to looking at images in magazines or on a television all day, then you may only be used to seeing airbrushed, digitally altered people who spend three to five hours a day on their bodies, who have personal chefs, trainers and weekly spa visits, and who are paid millions to be a size six or have washboard abs. They may be anorexic or bulimic and only able to keep their weight off with cocaine and amphetamines. After indulging in this orgy of synthesized glamour, we find ourselves extremely disappointed when our date takes off his or her clothes and we discover a human being. People in magazines don’t have liver spots, don’t lose their hair, or have cellulite. They rarely have hair on their backs, or breasts that sag, or wrinkles on their faces and necks, or love-handles, uncapped teeth, or adult acne. If the person we fall in love with doesn’t have a monster cock or a bubble butt, then what? What if our potential partner has chosen to avoid breast implants, liposuction, face-lifts or botox injections and she prefers just to age naturally? As a recovering sex-addict, I understand from my many experiences in the bathhouses and cruising how easy it is to objectify someone until they are reduced to something functional that exists only for our pleasure, like an air-conditioner or a toaster-oven. Some of our outrage and despair in relationships comes from the fact that we discard people (and are discarded) because they have the audacity to expect to be loved despite their imperfections. If we only consider other people who share our shallow standards of beauty, then we know we are in serious trouble in the relationship if, due to an unexpected depression, we gain twenty pounds and feel our partner wants to break up because they refuse to be with anyone who “looks like that.” Insisting on physical perfection from everyone we’re in a relationship with eventually backfires. In the end, we are the ones who end up running to the bathroom to examine ourselves every fifteen minutes and find out if we are any less attractive than the last time we checked; we mutilate our bodies with excessive plastic surgery, addictive tanning or compulsive exercise, in order to feel worthy enough to live. While every relationship has its challenges, gay relationships are tested in unique ways. You might have had my experience of running into people I haven’t seen in a while, and being asked, “Are you still with your boyfriend?” It is not customary for me to go up to my heterosexual friends, specifically those who are in long-term relationships or married and ask, “Are you still with your husband?” I’ve also known siblings, one gay, one straight, who were going through crises in their long-term relationships at the same time. When “Suzy and Jim” were thinking about separating and getting divorced, the family galvanized itself around the couple and began a campaign to keep their marriage together. But when “Paul and Michael” were thinking of breaking up after almost the same number of years together, disappointment was expressed, and Paul was told he’d find someone else one day. The unspoken assumption was that it was amazing the relationship had lasted as long as it had, as we all know how “gay men are.” An interracial gay relationship may have the added pressure of being more visible on the street and thus more vulnerable to racist and homophobic remarks or violence (I once read that given the social divide in America, if a white and black man of a certain age are seen walking together and they aren’t co-workers, they’re assumed to be homosexuals); a partnership between two women may not be taken seriously as family refuse to see them as anything more than “girlfriends” or “roommates” who are just keeping each other company until the right man comes along. Our own internalized homophobia can even rear its head in unconscious ways as we sabotage our gay relationships just when they are starting to take off. Cheating or having an affair, financially debting to a partner, working constantly so that there is never any time to spend together, can all be ways of affirming what we knew all along, having been told it all our lives by a homophobic society: gay relationships are inherent failures, and morally wrong, and love between two people of the same sex can’t possibly work. We have to guard our gay relationships like found treasures, protecting them from homophobic family members, society’s low expectations, or even from our own corrupted thinking. Fighting for our relationships often means challenging our assumptions about the same sex. Gay women in relationships may have to overcome the social conditioning that tells women not to trust each other, to keep a man at the center of a relationship and let him take the lead, putting themselves last. Gay men who’ve been taught a paradigm of macho brutality for solving problems, may have to change their ideas about male competitiveness, communication and anger, for a partnership to survive at all. I went on my first official date with a man months after I arrived at college. Justin was a graduate student a few years older than I who was also coming out of the closet; we’d met in our gay support group. Our evening was an adventure, to say the least, at times both humorous and terrifying. If Justin had been a woman, I would have had some cultural expectation of what to do, about who should pick up whom, pay for the meal and initiate our first kiss. Gay people aren’t the only ones who face this dilemma, by the way - there are heterosexual men and women challenging the cultural assumptions when they date, defying the rules. But for gay people the rules just aren’t there. A gay or lesbian rarely hears from his or her parents, “Now when your father and I had our first homosexual date….” It is important for us as gays to be patient with ourselves and with the dating process, especially when we have come out of the closet late in life. We need to forgive ourselves at 35 for having the awkwardness of a fifteen-year-old. For some of us, our grief in relationships comes from the fact that we weren’t allowed as adolescents in relationships to have the same trial and error as most heterosexuals have had. Years ago, I got the best advice I ever had about relationships, which I’ve tried to apply ever since: I was told never to grab, and that if I wanted a relationship it was good practice to love everything I could – puppies, homemade lasagna, a favorite book, roller-skating, fresh flowers - and that the outpouring of love would eventually attract even more love in my life. The enchanted life was about letting things come to me that were mine; the “grabby” life was about manipulating everyone so I wouldn’t feel alone (and ending up alone because no one likes being manipulated). I was told to drop anything that might get in the way of my enjoying other people, like prejudice of any kind, racism, sexism, or even my own internalized homophobia and judgment of gays. I was told that there might be years in my life when I would be building something other than a long-term relationship, and that a partnership would come at exactly the right time for me. I also had to face the fact that the constant pursuit of a new romantic relationship was sometimes a subterfuge to keep from focusing on myself. Sometimes a relationship ends and we are immediately searching for the next one, while our close friends are thinking, “What Miss Thing needs to be looking for is a rehab so she can get her ass off crystal.” I also knew that for whatever mysterious reason, some people struggled in the area of relationships more than others, as some did with financial security. I have friends who just say the word “money” and then practically find it on the street moments later, who go from promotions at work to pay raises, and who owned their own homes by thirty; while others like me find it a chore to balance a checkbook. On the other hand, these same people can walk into a party and complain that “no-one interesting” is there, sitting bored and alone, while other friends will know most of the names in the room within an hour, and have already exchanged a few phone numbers. I finally realized that the experience of finding a partner isn’t the same for everyone, and that for whatever reason I thought I wanted a relationship, there might be a deeper, more compelling psychological reason why I didn’t want one, a reason as simple as a four-year-old inside me who avoided relationships because he didn’t want to fight all the time like Mom and Dad did. Recently, on an impulse, I saw the movie Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Surrounded by parents and children, I found myself moved to tears by Freddie Highmore’s performance. When Charlie’s grandfather reminds him that there is no way that he will find one of the golden tickets to Willie Wonka’s factory because he is not privileged like the other children who’ve already won, his grandmother says, “Charlie, everyone has a chance.” Charlie later finds a ticket and offers to sell it to buy food for his hungry family; the same grandfather reminds him that money will always be there, but that he shouldn’t miss the opportunity to experience his dream. I felt foolish sitting there crying, but something in the story reminded me that our most valued commodity, what we need most to make our relationships work or even to pursue them at all, is not stocks or bonds, but innocence. The work of recovery is having the courage to search for the child who is waiting for us underneath the crushed and broken house of our past. Underneath all the addictions, underneath the sarcasm and cynicism that fueled the addiction, underneath the grief which led to the sarcasm, is a child who once trusted, loved and dreamed, and craved intimacy with others, a child who said, “Can I play with you guys?” before the “No’s” were heard; or who searched for a place to sit in the cafeteria and asked, “Is anyone sitting here?” before the reply came, “Sorry, that seat’s saved”; who drew pictures for Mom without being asked, just to make her happy. Somewhere in that open, vulnerable place, away from the cruelties of the world, there exists the possibility of true friendship, kindness and honesty, which is always at the core of any lasting love affair. It is easy to forget that the thing we are so often begging others to return to us, or give us in the first place, isn’t lost at all, just hidden, buried underneath jaws locked tight in anger, and heartbroken cries of, “If he makes even one mistake, he’s out.” As there are billions of people on the planet meeting each other every day, the problem isn’t a lack of people, or even meeting each other, it’s staying together once we’ve met. Being serious about serious gay relationships means appreciating the ways we’ve been hurt as people, specifically as gay people. It means facing the fact that trying to have intimacy with another person when our psychological barriers are considerable, when we’re too fucked up and damaged to let anyone close to us, is like trying to reach the top of the Empire State Building using a stepladder. (We'd never question getting professional help if we had a broken leg, why should it be any different with a broken heart?) It’s about getting the support we need, and fully participating in our lives, not when the lover knocks at the door, but before she appears. It’s knowing when it’s okay to negotiate and make compromises in a relationship (choosing a restaurant for dinner, deciding what color to paint the kitchen, planning a vacation) and when it’s not (violence of any kind, untreated addiction, broken sexual agreements). It’s having the dignity to walk away from a destructive relationship and trusting that there is something better out there for us, while also knowing that if we end a relationship just because it’s “uncomfortable” (i.e. because it forces us to look at our pain and grow up) then we will keep leaving partners and having the same experience over and over again. As Marianne Williamson has said in her many lectures on relationships, each new relationship always picks up where the last one left off. It has been said that we really have only one relationship in our entire lives, no matter how many people we date or fall in love with, and that each partnership will always mirror back the love that we have for ourselves. And finally, the most important key to any successful romantic relationship is this: make sure the two of you are never “insane” at the same time. There has to be one of you that doesn’t go into flashback mode during a fight, who avoids the door-slams, broken plates and silent treatment, and who can look at the other and say with clarity, “I’m sorry. I know we both made mistakes here and we’re both feeling angry and hurt. Can we please sit down and just talk about this?” Then one of you puts on the coffee and the other gets the cups and you each talk for fifteen minutes, uninterrupted, about what you are feeling in the moment. In my own relationship, I’m definitely a sulker who never forgets anything; fortunately, I also have a good eye for why things went wrong. My partner, who admits he’s sometimes too internal about his process, is good at forgiveness, apologizing first, and not holding grudges. It’s not a perfect recipe, but that, along with the help of two amazing therapists and a dog who barks whenever we start fighting, has gotten us through the last twelve years. http://aloneatsapience.blogspot.it/ (Le sottolineature sono mie). Edited August 16, 2012 by privateuniverse Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyFred Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Onestamente, detesto le lezioni di filosofia di vita. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad65 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Part of the reason why relationships, gay or straight, are so difficult, and why the failure to find one is so shame-inducing, is that there is a cultural assumption that we know how to have them. There aren't any courses in our primary education that teach us how to have healthy relationships, and proper sex education, on the occasions when it’s offered, doesn’t get the job done. articolo forse davvero troppo lungo ma visto che ho una teoria sull'argomento ho estrapolato un passo che mi aiuta ad illustrarla quello che dice l'estensore è vero, nessuno ci ha mai insegnato a gestire una relazione sentimentale o un rapporto affettivo ma secondo me c'è una spiegazione: la cosa non si può insegnare occorre apprenderla con molta esperienza il problema di molti gay, almeno di una certa generazione, è che questa esperienza non c'è mai stata: ci si è scoperti tardi ad un'età quando i coetanei etero avevano già avuto almeno alcune esperienze acerbe ci si è accettati ancora più tardi ci si è decisi a fare i primi passi ancora più tardi, magari nel momento in cui si è raggiunta l'indipendenza economica e ci si è allontanati dalla casa paterna ci si ritrova a 30 anni passati con l'esperienza affettiva di un dodicenne etero, se va bene viste le premesse, se si riesce a recuperare questo gap in una quindicina d'anni è già un miracolo inutile dire che fare esperienza di certe cose a 15 anni è un conto, farla a 30 è completamente diverso, non si ha forse neanche più l'elasticità mentale per introiettare certe dinamiche ovviamente le cose non saranno così per tutti, vedo che i ventenni di oggi sono molto più precoci nelle loro esperienze, ma certo anche per un ventenne gay di oggi le prime esperienze affettive e sessuali non sono a 13-14 anni come per gli etero ma sempre 5-6-7 anni dopo Edited August 16, 2012 by conrad65 Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarivs Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Gran parte di questo gap è dovuto ad un contesto di insicurezza. La maggioranza degli omosessuali (e non solo questa categoria) ha dei deficit affettivi evidenti e spesso collegati alla teoria dell'attaccamento di Bowlby. In una simile condizione la sperimentazione dell'adolescente (così come dell'infante) è ostacolata, difficile, rischiosa. Si tende a rinunciare (o a bruciare le tappe) piuttosto che compiere il normale percorso evolutivo. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Condivido quanto dice Conrad65, ma mi pare che Aquarivs, nella sostanza, non dica cose molto diverse e ne fornisca, piuttosto, un'altra motivazione. Molti ragazzi e ragazze etero possono "fare esperienza" anche da adolescenti o da giovani, cosa che a molti di noi è preclusa fino a un'età relativamente tarda. Secondo me questo è molto meno valido, grazie a internet, per chi oggi ha vent'anni, ma molto dipende dall'approccio della persona. Secondo me l'articolo è pieno di considerazioni giuste, ma dà per scontata una cosa che scontata non lo è affatto, e cioè che sia facile uscire con qualcuno, una prima o una seconda volta. Quando ho ripreso a incontrare per me, al contrario, è stato difficilissimo: ho beccato un sacco di rifiuti e, in parecchi casi, persone che mi hanno tenuto una vita in chat ma hanno sistematicamente rifiutato di vedersi. Ovviamente questo prescinde dalla spiegazione più ovvia, e cioè che probabilmente sono un cesso (ma non direi che i miei interlocutori fossero, nel complesso, attraenti). Il punto che condivido maggiormente è quello sul peso delle fantasie romantiche e sul fatto che molti cercano persone che non esistono nella realtà: in altri termini, la pretesa di essere apprezzati per quello che si è mentre si pretende che gli altri corrispondano ai nostri requisiti, siano quel che noi vorremmo che fossero e ci diano ciò che noi pretendiamo quando, spesso, noi per primi non siamo minimamente disposti a scendere ad alcun compromesso. C'è però un elemento che mi convince meno: la maturità non dovrebbe, in linea di massima, portarci ad una maggiore stabilità emotiva, a liberarci da certe reazioni automatiche, a riconsiderare i nostri comportamenti e i nostri errori? E' possibile che esperienze negative nell'infanzia o nell'adolescenza siano destinate a rimanere tare ineliminabili, che è impossibile riparare o correggere? PS @Aquarivs, cos'è la teoria dell'attaccamento di Bowlby? Edited August 16, 2012 by privateuniverse Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyFred Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 E' anche vero che non si può mica cominciare a scendere a compromessi dal primo appuntamento... Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ohoh, quello che dice "Tutti mi considerano cesso" e quello che pensa "Tutti quello che conosco sono cessi"! Ragazzi, se volete vi fornisco io le spade laser Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyFred Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Il secondo sono io? :P Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ovvio! Vi lamentate di cose talmente simmetriche che il giorno che sarete fidanzati entrambi scenderà sulla Terra la Gerusalemme Celeste Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyFred Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ma Almy, veramente anche io credo di essere cesso. Il ragionamento è che, siccome piaccio solo ai cessi, allora evidentemente devo essere cesso anche io Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Io direi di prescindere dalle considerazioni sui singoli intervenienti e di attenersi al testo dell'articolo. Quel che vi si dice è giusto, è sbagliato, è utile, è inutile, descrive dinamiche frequenti oppure no? Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Se è per questo anche privateuniverse lamenta la mancanza di "compromessi" quando lui per primo è di una intransigenza proverbiale (Devo attenermi ai commenti personali, perché avrei troppe difficoltà a leggere un articolo in inglese tanto lungo; ma di solito le cose più interessanti emergono dai commenti) Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 E tu che ne sai? Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyFred Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Utile non lo è di sicuro. Le conosco benissimo una ad una le ferite del mio cuore, ormai le chiamo per nome. Questo non ha nessun effetto catartico freudiano, semplicemente sono tutte lì. E allora? So perché faccio molta attenzione all'estetica: a conti fatti, non credo affatto alla bellezza dell'anima. So perché non mi impegno a continuare una frequentazione se non sono stato colpito fortemente già dal primo incontro; ogni tentativo è un rischio di un'altra ferita, cerco di correrlo solo a fronte di un grande guadagno potenziale. E non sono pieno di amore per le persone. Amo le formiche, amo i libri, i videogiochi, la filosofia, il mare. Le persone, per la maggior parte, le vedo come possibili sorgenti di dolore molto più che come possibili amici e consolatori. Sono abituato a fare da solo, e a star male da solo; una cosa che ho imparato a gestire anche con grande efficienza, se non subisco traumi particolari causatimi appunto proprio dal rifiuto da parte delle persone. Se non fosse per la mia scarsa attitudine alla rassegnazione, avrei da tempo smesso di incontrare ragazzi e mi sarei accontentato di star male, ma non malissimo. E in effetti ultimamente ho pochissimi appuntamenti, per lo più a sfondo sessuale... Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarivs Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 C'è tanta di quella carne al fuoco che non so da dove cominciare!!! lol Allora cominciamo da qui: So perché faccio molta attenzione all'estetica: a conti fatti, non credo affatto alla bellezza dell'anima. So perché non mi impegno a continuare una frequentazione se non sono stato colpito fortemente già dal primo incontro; ogni tentativo è un rischio di un'altra ferita, cerco di correrlo solo a fronte di un grande guadagno potenziale. Delle tante motivazioni che mi sono giunte all'orecchio sul fatto che si ci pigli in base all'estetica questa mi sembra (e ci tengo a dire MI) la più triste e abietta. Il fatto di essere rimasti delusi dalla pochezza dell'anima come può, di fatto, trovare una conseguenza nella ricerca della perfezione estetica? Sicuramente richiede meno aspettative (visto e piaciuto VS scoperto e non piaciuto) ma non vi trovo alcuna consequenzialità nelle due cose.A prescindere dal fatto che ci sono 75mila danni che derivano dalla rassegnazione al fatto che la bellezza dell'anima non esista e che questa deduzione dica molto più di te che del resto del mondo, mi spieghi quale sarebbe questo grande guadagno potenziale? (Devo attenermi ai commenti personali, perché avrei troppe difficoltà a leggere un articolo in inglese tanto lungo; ma di solito le cose più interessanti emergono dai commenti) La mia simpatia per te è ai massimi storici in questo momento.. ti riemepirei di abbracci PS @Aquarivs, cos'è la teoria dell'attaccamento di Bowlby? La teoria sull'attaccamento di Bowlby è una delle principali teorie sullo sviluppo psicoaffettivo che ha una natura sia psicologica che neurologica, infatti appartiene alla psicologia cognitiva. In netta contrapposizione alla teoria freudiana, John mette in luce quelle sono le relazioni e le dinamiche tra il bambino e la madre (o i genitori in genere) formulando una teoria predittiva (o proiezione) di quella che sarà la personalità dell'uomo adulto. Dopo duri esperimenti e ricerche scientifiche Bowlby arrivò ad evidenziare alcune dinamiche fisse in relazione al rapporto madre-figlio che definì: Relazione sicura, insicura e ambivalente. Questi tre casi (e sotto casi) una volta consolidati nel rapporto genitori figlio si ripeteranno per tutta la vita senza che alcun cambiamento radicale sia possibile (nemmeno lo psicologo può far miracoli in questo senso). Quando ho letto questo scritto che hai quotato ho subito collegato le dinamiche relaizionali omosessuali ad una matrice comune: l'attaccamento. Da qui immagino proseguirai da solo con i dunque.. xD Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Bene, direi che questo ("se non possiede, già al primo incontro, una serie di prerequisiti, io la chiudo lì, so perché è così, e comunque è così e basta e non ho alcuna intenzione di cambiare atteggiamento") è un buon esempio di quella "mancanza di attitudine al compromesso" cui alludevo. Direi che dimostra anche un'altra cosa: la rigidità non è necessariamente "moralistica"; può anche essere "edonistica" ("valuto le persone soltanto in funzione del fatto che mi servano ad ottenere quel che voglio da loro, quel che ho bisogno che loro mi diano"). Ad ogni modo, anche questa è una risposta. Almadel, te lo devo tradurre l'articolo? Edited August 16, 2012 by privateuniverse Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 @privateuniverse Io ti giudico al di là delle apparenze esteriori (perché non ti ho mai visto) e al di là del tuo desiderio di fare una buona impressione (perché è un forum e non una chat). Le intemperanze caratteriali (vedi le tue) e gli atteggiamenti negativi delle persone (vedi quelle del post sopra al mio, di FreakyFred) - che sono il vero ostacolo per rendersi "importanti" agli occhi di chi ci piace - vengono perdonate esclusivamente ai "grandi pezzi di figo". E solo fino a una certa età. Prima possibile bisogna imparare a sorridere. Soprattutto se già si hanno abbastanza argomenti per rendersi interessanti. Proprio perché la vita è pesante, le persone vogliono un compagno che gliela renda più leggera. Una persona con cui ridere, giocare, divertirsi, scopare, rilassarsi, ubriacarsi... Non una persona che possa renderci la vita ancora più nera di quanto non sia già. Dai 12 ai 34 anni sono stato single per un anno e mazzo, sommando tutto. Il mio segreto? Parlare della violenza che ho subito, delle botte di mio padre e della camicia di forza solo dopo un anno di relazione. E dopo mezz'ora di chat, se incontro qualcuno mi parla solo di quanto soffra per il suo ex, di quante "male" gli ha fatto la gente, di quanto sia stressato per gli esami o per il lavoro, di quanto siano "superficiali" i gay. Se è molto carino, spero solo che stia zitto velocemente e che si conceda in fretta. PS: mi sembra un lavoro esagerato, però gradirei una sinossi. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 - Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreakyFred Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Aquarivs, l'utilità dei tuoi giudizi sulla mia vita personale per il progresso dell'umanità o anche solo per quello di questa discussione è a mio avviso (e sottolineo MIO) inferiore a quella di una canzone di Povia :) Almadel, non penserai davvero che dopo tutti questi anni faccia ANCORA l'errore di parlare soltanto della mia depressione. Cavolo, ci siamo pure conosciuti, dopotutto... Di solito sono cose che tengo accuratamente nascoste. Poi a volte è impossibile nasconderle... In quei rari casi cambio strategia e cerco di stimolare la parte crocerossina dell'altro. Che tu ci creda o no, spesso funziona XD Edited August 16, 2012 by FreakyFred Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
korio Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Io credo che una parte del problema è più che altro alla mancanza di comprensione di cosa significhi "avere una relazione" in ambito gay. In ambito etero è più semplice. Una relazione dopo un po' significa costruire "una famiglia" possibilmente con figli, ma anche fatta di sole due persone. Comunque, è la costruzione di un clan. Su questo siamo educati dagli esempi, e ci viene ancora oggi il nonno a raccontare che magari la nonna non è che proprio se l'ha scelta, ma che si sono trovati un po' "accoppiati" uno con l'altro da spinte esterne, e che poi l'amore è venuto dopo, nel lavoro di creare lo spazio per una sana convivenza, nello spazio del compromesso non in senso negativo, ma, come dire, nel senso di ruotare gli ingranaggi e allentare chiodi e bulloni fino a che non si incastrano in qualche modo. In ambito gay, la lezione è differente. Innanzi tutto c'è una forte spinta alla sessualità condivisa, e questo può essere un bene, ma certo non aiuta la coppia. Mi è piaciuto un passo in cui si parlava della crisi di una relazione etero, e tutti quante le forze esterne intervenivano a dare una mano a sistemare le cose, mentre nel caso di una crisi nella relazione gay, c'è l'amico di turno che suggerisce di aprire la coppia, come se fosse nel cuore del sesso la panacea di tutti i mali, o come se l'aspetto sessuale sia quello che determina la relazione. Però credo che la cosa più importante è che manca l'idea di cosa significhi costruire una relazione, cosa sia vivere insieme, cosa sia un progetto. Certamente, la spinta disgregativa di una società ostile alle relazioni gay ovviamente non aiuta. Ma soprattutto non aiuta la visione troppo adolescenziale di molti di noi, che vogliono trovare "qualcuno da amare" o "qualcuno che ci ami" con grande pathos e idealità nel termine "amore" e confondendolo con l'innamoramento o la passione, ma che non associano a questo il concetto base che "amare" è anche e soprattutto vivere insieme, costruire, avere elementi in comune, parlare, discutere, prendere una casa e (per dire) un cane e decidere di portarlo a spasso una volta ogni tanto e cose così. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarivs Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Aquarivs, l'utilità dei tuoi giudizi sulla mia vita personale per il progresso dell'umanità o anche solo per quello di questa discussione è a mio avviso (e sottolineo MIO) inferiore a quella di una canzone di Povia :) Perchè mai ci dovrebbe essere un'utilià? E che sono mamma oca? Io ho letto le tue giustificazioni e non mi hanno convinto. Punto. Ma come hai capito resta solo una mia considerazione che esula dal resto per cui puoi anche dimenticartene se vuoi. Edited August 16, 2012 by Aquarivs Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad65 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Però credo che la cosa più importante è che manca l'idea di cosa significhi costruire una relazione, cosa sia vivere insieme, cosa sia un progetto. credo che questo sia vero, ed è il risultato di un "mix" disastroso tra il cronico ritardo esperenziale in ambito affettivo legato all'essere gay unito al fatto che alcuni processi di maturazione psicologica, come diceva @Aquarivs, avvengono in un ambito ben specifico (anche di età) e di scarsa o nulla reversibilità, dopodiché certi comportamenti e le aspettative che ne conseguono risultano annegati nella nostra stessa personalità e difficilmente sradicabili o modificabili ciò detto, io credo che sia possibile lavorarci sopra e che qualche risultato anche molto positivo e di crescita personale si possa sempre ottenere, a qualsiasi età Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 @privateuniverse Io ti giudico al di là delle apparenze esteriori (perché non ti ho mai visto) e al di là del tuo desiderio di fare una buona impressione (perché è un forum e non una chat). Ammazza, vostro onore. Pensavo che a giudicare fossero solo le persone intransigenti come me. (No, in realtà non lo pensavo, lo sapevo già che non era così. ) Le intemperanze caratteriali (vedi le tue) e gli atteggiamenti negativi delle persone (vedi quelle del post sopra al mio, di FreakyFred) - che sono il vero ostacolo per rendersi "importanti" agli occhi di chi ci piace - vengono perdonate esclusivamente ai "grandi pezzi di figo". E solo fino a una certa età. Prima possibile bisogna imparare a sorridere. Soprattutto se già si hanno abbastanza argomenti per rendersi interessanti. Proprio perché la vita è pesante, le persone vogliono un compagno che gliela renda più leggera. Una persona con cui ridere, giocare, divertirsi, scopare, rilassarsi, ubriacarsi... Non una persona che possa renderci la vita ancora più nera di quanto non sia già. Dai 12 ai 34 anni sono stato single per un anno e mazzo, sommando tutto. Il mio segreto? Parlare della violenza che ho subito, delle botte di mio padre e della camicia di forza solo dopo un anno di relazione. E dopo mezz'ora di chat, se incontro qualcuno mi parla solo di quanto soffra per il suo ex, di quante "male" gli ha fatto la gente, di quanto sia stressato per gli esami o per il lavoro, di quanto siano "superficiali" i gay. Se è molto carino, spero solo che stia zitto velocemente e che si conceda in fretta. Grazie per aver condiviso questo tuo pensiero (quante decine di volte l'ho già letto in qualche mese di frequentazione, non mi ricordo più). Cercherò di far tesoro dei tuoi consigli. Ora lascio agli altri eventuali commenti sull'articolo. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
korio Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Beh, sicuramente, @@conrad65 dopotutto ci sono relazioni gay durature e stabili, non è una impresa impossibile. Semplicemente si tratta di crescere un po', di abbandonare il modello della relazione adolescenziale che per chi come me, e credo te, è arrivato al mondo gay solo in tarda età, è un format di "alla ricerca del tempo perduto". Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
coeranos Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Come ha detto FreakyFred suscitare i sentimenti da crocerossina funziona, perché ci si innamora di ciò che fa emozionare e il mondo è pieno di Candy Candy (e ne conosco) Ammetto di aver dato solo uno sguardo veloce all'articolo Del perché si rimane soli ne potrei fare un elenco di motivi, ora mi limito a quelli di cui avete già discusso. Sono d'accordo sull'esperienza e sul ritardo dei gay rispetto agli etero. Ci sono anche differenze di età. Sullo scaricare subito le persone sono solo in parte d'accordo. Non è con un secondo appuntamento forzato che cambiano le cose. Perché il motivo per cui gli altri spariscono è che non sono abbastanza interessati. Sempre e solo quello. Poi l'essere nel "flusso" della società fa molta differenza, essere socialmente adattati o emarginati. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Grazie per aver condiviso questo tuo pensiero (quante decine di volte l'ho già letto in qualche mese di frequentazione, non mi ricordo più). prova a dire cose diverse e avrai risposte diverse Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Perché ho l'impressione che le tue risposte sarebbero sempre uguali, quali che siano le domande? Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almadel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Parli solo della tua solitudine. E io ti rispondo solo: "Smetti di essere negativo, nessuno vorrebbe uno come te" Prova ad avere problemi di ragadi e vedrai che cambierò risposta. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateuniverse Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Veramente io ho postato un articolo, sul quale mi sono limitato a fare una notazione personale, peraltro a margine. Di me sei stato soprattutto tu a parlare, senza che nessuno te lo chiedesse (tanto meno io), non potendo parlare di un articolo il cui contenuto, per tua stessa ammissione, non capisci e non conosci. Nessuno ha chiesto, né a te né ad altri, di parlare di me. Sei tu che hai scelto di farlo. Evidentemente trovi molto interessante parlare di me, più di quanto lo trovi io. Chissà perché. Edited August 16, 2012 by privateuniverse Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarivs Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Infatti io di certo non sono interessato a sapere quali siano i problemi di private specialmente quando non è lui a parlarne.. Link to comment https://www.gay-forum.it/topic/21097-why-the-hell-am-i-still-alone/#findComment-594462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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